Talk:Éamon de Valera

Vandalism?

He was re-elected President in 1966, aged 84, until 2013...

Is this vandalism?

Valetude (talk) 19:24, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why you cut off the rest of the sentence. But, in full, it reads "[...] until 2013 a world record for the oldest elected head of state". The authors intent was clearly to communicate, not that "until 2013 [he was president]", But that "until 2013, this was a record for oldest head of state". Perhaps the writer could have been clearer in wording and sentence construction. But there is no indication that the writer intended this as vandalism. Guliolopez (talk) 14:03, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

The Date of de Valera's Birth Certificate Amendment

de Valera's birth certificate on file with New York City's Department of Records shows that it was amended on June 30, 1916 (https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/68888). However, a deleted (but archived) blog post on nyc.gov cited the year as "1910" not 1916 because they relied on a low resolution copy of the original (see here: https://web.archive.org/web/20040208005923/http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/features/devalera.shtml). The low resolution copy made it appear as though the 1916 says 1910 and it is what Wikipedia currently relies on for de Valera's birth certificate amendment date. The date of the amendment should rely on the primary source, which is the high resolution image of the birth certificate viewable on file at nyc.gov that says 1916, not a deleted blog post that used a less legible low resolution copy. The date should be corrected to 1916. Thank you! Seanmca2 (talk) 17:48, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Given that the previous (secondary) source is no longer live and as the original (primary) source does appear to be dated to 1916, for now I've taken out the year. Pending more discussion, consensus and clarity. Guliolopez (talk) 17:22, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

The original wiki article date of 1910 was simply wrong. The 1910 date appears to come from a single typographical error repeated elsewhere with no basis in any primary source or contemporary secondary source. Basic historical practice requires that we adopt the primary source material in this situation.

https://www.archontology.org/nations/eire/eire_rep2/valera4.php

I’m unable to find any serious academic writing that would support 1910. This is a done deal. 152.208.101.233 (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Founder of Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies

Eamon de Valera is the founder of Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, perhaps it would worth to mention this in the article. 'n Quijote (talk) 20:42, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Why is this materially relevant to the subject here? Per the sources (such as this primary source) in the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies article, the "DIAS [..was..] established over seventy years ago by the government of the Taoiseach Éamon de Valera (Institute for Advanced Studies Act, 1940)". Even the source you listed, but then removed, says "in establishing DIAS in 1940 the Oireachtas, under the leadership of Eamon de Valera, was clearly motivated by two principal considerations".

Both of these sources give that it was "the government" and "the Oireachtas" (and the Act) that established the institution. Not, seemingly, de Valera acting on his own or as an individual.

Would we list de Valera as the "founder" of every institution or agency or semi-state body or anything else that was established under Acts passed (by the Oireachtas) while he was Taoiseach? Even if those Acts had their origins in bills that he introduced? Why would we do so? Whether for all such entities - or just this one? What am I missing (coz I must be missing something...)? Guliolopez (talk) 14:13, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

You can read about his personal role in founding the institute for example here and here. The point in the first resource is this:

"The quiet, scholarly de Valera had long wanted to found an institute that would increase Ireland's stature in the international scholastic world. He decided to concentrate on two relatively inexpensive disciplines-Celtic studies and theoretical nhvsics. In those pre-computing days. all that was needed was a good library. When 'Hitler came to power and expelled many of the Jewish scientists. de Valera tried to offer facilities in Ireland to these displaced scientists. Although Erwin Schrodinger was Catholic and of "Aryan" blood, by the early 1930s he was already on the Nazis blacklist (2). De Valera personally encouraged Schrodinger and his wife to leave Berlin. In 1938, they fled to Rome. At the time, de Valera was serving as President of the Assembly of the League of Nations which was meeting in Geneva. He summoned Schrodinger from Rome and between sessions of the Assemhlv they planned the Dublin Institute. However, it was not so easy to get legislation establishing the Institute through the Irish parliament. De Valera tried again and again. Finally, on July 6, 1939, as both Taoiseach and Minister for Education, he introduced a bill which provided for the "establishment and maintenance" of the Dublin Institute (3). The bill became law when it was signed by Douglas Hyde, the President of Ireland, on June 19, 1940."

The English translation of the highlighted text in the latter is this:

"A relationship based on mutual respect, almost friendship, was established with Eamon de Valera, the founder of the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies, who invited János to become the senior professor director of the School of Cosmic Physics, the third "school" of the Institute, founded in 1947."

De Valera was a mathematician and a science enthusiast, and in many resources, he is mentioned as the founder of this institute. Beyond his relationships with leading  scientists, his science enthusiast is demonstrated in the following footnote in Misner-Thorne-Wheeler's Gravitation (p.1135)

"In the same city on June 21, 1972 President Eamon de Valera told one of the authors that, while in jail one evening in 1916, scheduled to be shot the next morning, he wrote down the formula of which he was so fond, i²=j²=k²=ijk=-1"

'n Quijote (talk) 05:42, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. Long as it was :)

I'd simply note that the sources/books/material covering the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies (DIAS), as their primary topic, speak to de Valera's role in its formation. (He wrote the bill, he was Taoiseach when it was voted into the Act, etc.) And so, the coverage of his role - in the DIAS article - is therefore probably not undue. (Relative to those sources.)

However, the biographical sources/books/materials covering Éamon de Valera, as their primary topic, do not appear to speak a lot about the DIAS. (Certainly not to the same levels given in the more "specialised" sources above). And so, while it's unclear to me how much text about the DIAS you propose to add to the de Valera article, I'd personally be wary of undue weight. (Relative to the sources and guideline.)

In short: If you're proposing to add a short mention of the DIAS ("he wrote the bill that formed the DIAS in 1939/1940"), then that might be OK. However, I'd be wary of giving it the same weight as other things that he was doing at that time (the new Constitution, World War II/The Emergency, Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement, etc). Much of which is perhaps (not unreasonably IMO) more comprehensively covered in the biographical sources which deal with that period (1939/1940/1941). As having more lasting historical/geopolitical relevance...

That's my 2x cents anyway. Seeing as you asked... Guliolopez (talk) 14:51, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I gave it a try. 'n Quijote (talk) 08:32, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. Frankly I wonder if that addition is misplaced (as neither of the additions refer to things from "early life" - and yet that's the section in which they're placed). While I have not (yet) moved the text, I have tempered the editorial it contains. I won't labour the point, but phrases like "as can be seen" represent editorial suppositions (MOS:AWW / WP:OR). And the attribution of feelings like "his love of mathematics and general respect for science" need qualification and attribution (WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV). While our writing doesn't have to be dry/boring, if drawing a causal connection between things (especially between something as fluid/ephemeral/subjective as a person's feelings towards a subject when a schoolboy and their feelings towards it [~50 years later] when a 60 year-old politician) we really shouldn't just present those "feelings" as we might any plain biographical fact. (Like when a bill was passed, or where someone lived, or roles that person held or whatever). Anyway... Guliolopez (talk) 14:28, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. My only excuse is that MTW also talks about "the formula of which he was so fond". 'n Quijote (talk) 14:39, 6 March 2025 (UTC)